| In the third and concluding part of the interview with | | | | No, no, they work together. But it has nothing to do |
| Javier, we continue to explore the use of Healing | | | | with going to a church. You learn all this in the |
| plants and Ayahuasca. discusses his involvement with | | | | wilderness. The spirits there are the angels of each |
| the shamanic Plant medicines of the Amazon, and | | | | plant to which you add your will to heal the client. |
| Ayahuasca in particular. Javier was interviewed by | | | | This is the will of Christ. |
| Howard G Charing and Peter Cloudsley in the Peru, | | | | Where does the power of the shaman end and the |
| Amazon Rainforest 2000. | | | | spirits begin? |
| Howard tells story of his battle with one of | | | | The shaman receives the power from the jungle, he |
| Javier’s assistants 3 weeks earlier. | | | | doesn’t have any power of his own that he |
| (Javier laughs a lot and explains.) Well because he | | | | doesn’t get from the forest. |
| was not really a shaman, he works as a guide, he | | | | When I look at you by day I see just a normal |
| drinks liquor. Then when he takes Ayahuasca and | | | | young man, when you wear your clothes and move |
| chants icaros he is not pure and his doctors | | | | into the ayahuasca space you become different, a |
| don’t take any notice of him. The spirits start | | | | different presence, you become larger… |
| bothering (molesting) the people participating in the | | | | (Javier laughs!) The medicine is not in the body, the |
| session. That is what happened to Howard. When I | | | | body can wear clothes for example, and you see |
| take Ayahuasca I talk to the doctors who give | | | | that by day. But at night you don’t see my |
| visions, I ask them to cure, I have dominion over | | | | body, you see my spirit which receives the medicine |
| them because I diet. If I don’t, they make you | | | | which transforms me through the vision. I have to be |
| crazy or annoy you. | | | | pure so as to be a receptacle of the spirit of the |
| So if the shaman cannot control himself, then the | | | | medicine. It is essential too for a shaman to be |
| spirits get out of hand? | | | | happy, the shaman laughs at everything, because a |
| If you can’t dominate the spirits of the jungle | | | | happy heart is what cures. He can’t have a long |
| you are nobody, instead of curing they run away or | | | | face or fight with his wife and children. |
| take no notice of you. | | | | You started off with a desire for revenge, what |
| So the control of the spirits is fundamental? | | | | changed you into a shaman? |
| Spirits are like angels. God withstood 40 days of | | | | My grandfather saw that my heart was bitter and he |
| hunger and temptation by the devil and was | | | | told me that it would not get me anywhere. My |
| resurrected. That’s what we have to do too. | | | | heart was still hard and wanted to kill! Bit by bit |
| This is Christianity, but your (Javier’s) people | | | | through taking the very plants that I had intended to |
| were practicing long before the missionaries came. Is | | | | use for revenge, the spirits told me it was wrong to |
| it possible to separate the Christian from the wisdom | | | | kill and my heart softened. |
| of the jungle? | | | | |